297. Procrastination: The Dungeons & Dragons Edition

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Joel: Hey, Joel Miller here. You’re gonna hear a different voice on today’s episode. Hannah Williamson is stepping in for Marissa for a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, Marissa has injured herself. She hurt her shoulder, and as a result, she’s a little bit incapacitated and so. Hannah who works with me, works with Marissa.

[00:00:23] She has stepped in to offer her voice and mind to these episodes. I think she’s gonna do a fantastic job, and I’m delighted to bring her in. And so with that, we’ll get going. Procrastination has what you might call a reputation problem. We treat it like it’s a character flaw. But what if sometimes procrastination is actually the smartest move you can make.

[00:00:51] But then again, sometimes, what if the stuff you’re putting off is actually making other people’s lives harder? Maybe even your own? Well, today we’re gonna sort all that out and we’re gonna do it with the help of. What else? Dungeons and Dragons

[00:01:12] welcome to focus on this, the most productive podcast on the internet. I’m Joel Miller.

[00:01:18] Hannah: And I’m Hannah Williamson.

[00:01:20] Joel: And this is where we remind you of something you already know. It’s not about getting more things done, it’s about getting the right things done,

[00:01:28] Hannah: both at work and in life. And today we are talking about everybody’s.

[00:01:33] Favorite productivity topic, procrastination.

[00:01:37] Joel: Yeah, I was gonna put this episode off and we actually did put this episode off, uh, Marissa and I recorded it actually. And if you listen to our brief announcement recently, some gremlins got into the wires or the electrons or whatever and befouled the recording process.

[00:01:58] And we did not actually capture the episode as we had. Hoped and what that meant was was that we had no episode. So here we are now. Rerecording that episode. With Hannah, and we are going to tackle the topic of procrastination forthwith, I should tell you, and the reason that we want to do this and need in fact to do this, is that procrastination is complicated, right?

[00:02:26] Like we think it’s always bad. We tend to think of it as a character flaw even, but it’s not. And sometimes there are strategic times and ways in which it needs to be. It’s utilized Other times, however, we might default to procrastination in ways that actually make our own lives miserable and the people around us miserable.

[00:02:46] And honestly, the easiest way to understand this is to consult Dungeons and Dragons.

[00:02:51] Hannah: Yeah. Joel, this was when you and I were going back and forth on this episode and you came up with this idea. I was initially skeptical. But I do think that this framework for thinking about procrastination is really helpful for teasing out very things that you’re highlighting, which is there are some moments where procrastination is strategic and it’s helpful and we need more of it, and then there are other moments when it just blows the world up.

[00:03:13] Joel: Yeah.

[00:03:13] Hannah: So if we’re gonna start by kind of introducing this Dungeons and Dragons framework, we know that when you’re. Playing Dungeons and Dragons, you build characters and those characters have different characteristics for how they move through kind of the world that you create. And so there are these ideas of chaotic, good, chaotic, evil.

[00:03:35] Joel: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:35] Hannah: Uh, lawful good and lawful evil. And we’re wanting to use some of those same frameworks to then talk about how we can leverage procrastination or not for the good or harm of the world around us.

[00:03:48] Joel: Yes. So if you are familiar with Dungeons and Dragons, you probably know this ubiquitous character table that was developed to help people generate these characters and use them in the game.

[00:04:00] If you are like me, you’ve never played it like I, I have never played Dungeons and Dragons, but I know people that do, my kids sometimes do, and. The meme of something being chaotic, evil or chaotic. Good is like ubiquitous regardless of whether you’ve actually ever played the game. So you’re just gonna have to trust us.

[00:04:20] You’re gonna have to run with us on this, and I think it will actually help elucidate. This whole subject in a way that you may not have considered before. And as we were working on it, I personally found it very helpful just to actually think in these terms, and I think that you’ll find it that way as well.

[00:04:37] Hannah: Yeah. So let’s just go ahead and get into this first category of lawful good. So when I’m thinking,

[00:04:43] Joel: yeah, what do you mean by lawful good in this instance?

[00:04:45] Hannah: Yeah. When I’m thinking about lawful good, I’m thinking about kind of the lawful piece being this kind of like. Strategic and intentional and like allowed, like it’s welcome and then good being kind of the impact that it creates.

[00:04:59] So this, it’s this kind of strategic attempt to do some good in the world via procrastination. So I’m thinking about it as like you’re procrastinating strategically on purpose and it, it has a positive impact.

[00:05:14] Joel: So let’s talk about where this might show up. We’ve got, let’s bucket all of these under professional and personal.

[00:05:20] So in a professional context where lawful good procrastination might show up, could look like delaying a product launch to account for your team’s bandwidth. It could look like waiting to give important feedback until there’s a less tense time where like there’s a more regulated moment where it would just be better welcome, delaying a big decision until you’ve had some time to think through it.

[00:05:43] You know, like how often have we not procrastinated that and regretted it, waiting to communicate stressful news to your team until you have more calm and better context. Waiting to check or respond to an email until a chosen time.

[00:05:58] Hannah: When I think about the kind of growth that we’ve had as a team here at Full Focus over the past few years, I actually think one of the biggest strengths is us getting better at this.

[00:06:09] Joel: Lawful good procrastination.

[00:06:10] Hannah: Yes, at lawful good procrastination. Because when we’re thinking about this overarching idea that we have of doing fewer things so that you can do them well, there are a couple avenues you can take to do that. One is to just stop doing some stuff and the strategies we have for that.

[00:06:24] But another is to just wait to do stuff. And so like I have really seen. Have these moments where we say, this is really important. We needed to give it a couple more weeks to either, you know, develop that idea mm-hmm. Or to buy the team some time to be able to execute on it as fully as we want to. And I think this, like in terms of underutilized productivity strategies, this would be at the top of the list for me, um, both at work and in life.

[00:06:50] So if I’m thinking. Kind of about, if we’re thinking personal and then professional. I’m thinking about this personal category. I’m thinking about things like delaying or deferring on a goal, right? So instead of trying to do three or four or five goals at once, what if you picked just one? What if you picked just two?

[00:07:06] Right? Canceling plans in advance to create personal margins. So you give your yes upfront, but then on the back end you’re like, oh, I actually don’t have the bandwidth for that, so I’m going to like in advance, not at the last minute, let you know I need to back out. Right? Maybe it could look like waiting a week before making a big purchase to see if you still want it.

[00:07:26] So instead of that one click, you know, Amazon purchase. Right? Just giving it a little bit of time or waiting to share bad news with a loved one until you’re in person. ’cause we know that those moments are more connecting, right? So it’s these moments of, Hey, I’m going to on purpose create a little bit of space.

[00:07:42] So that kind of, when I deliver that final product, it lands the way I want it.

[00:07:48] Joel: I mean, the whole big idea here is that as we’re busy triaging the tasks and projects and our work and our personal lives, this is the kind of procrastination that helps us. Uh, it tends to do good for ourselves and it tends to do good for those around us.

[00:08:03] So lawful good procrastination. All of us could actually stand to have more of this. Yeah. In our lives, this is about deliberately delaying to create margin. Doing it proactively on purpose. It’s about doing the right thing at the right time. It’s about sometimes waiting, because that’s the most productive thing you can actually do.

[00:08:25] Hannah: I love that the counter intuitiveness of that piece, right, is that sometimes waiting is productive, right? But not all procrastination is good. So let’s get into talking about some waffle. Evil procrastination and you actually introduced this term to me of vindictive compliance. So can you talk a little bit about what that is?

[00:08:45] Joel: Yeah, so let me just back up and say for a second if we’re defining lawful good is it’s proactive and it’s strategic and it’s intended to do some good. Lawful evil is like, it’s proactive and strategic, but it creates harm. Like in other words, you’re inflicting misery on your coworkers and others when you exercise lawful evil.

[00:09:09] And I was reminded as we were first talking about this, about this idea of vindictive compliance, which is like. When you follow the rules to the letter and then all hell breaks loose as a result, and you did it on purpose, like you are intentionally following the rules in such a way that bad stuff happens.

[00:09:28] And you can imagine how in a, in. In a work environment where things are like bad, how people use the rules against each other in some cases, but I don’t think you actually need to be vindictive in order to have this kind of thing poison, a work environment. So like if you just think about where you might be in bounds, but where you’re hurting others in the workplace, it could be like.

[00:09:55] For leaders like exercising the leader’s privilege or prerogative on things like you’re within your rights to do it, but you, and you ask for this thing, but you’re taking advantage of your team and your power. When you do it in a way that’s negative or you delay a meeting because you’re not prepared for it, everyone else is ready.

[00:10:12] They’re like, they’re lined up, they’re sitting in the chair and you’re like, guys, we’re gonna punt this. You can basically delay. No skin off your nose for doing it, but everyone else pays the bill for the wasted time and everything else. Or maybe you delay a decision that you could make now, but. You just don’t want to because it’s like emotionally difficult or something like that.

[00:10:35] Like you’re maybe not gonna fire somebody that you should, for instance, everyone else has to put up with that person that you’re letting hang on. ’cause you won’t have the difficult conversation that kind of. Lawful evil. Procrastination just makes everybody’s life miserable.

[00:10:50] Hannah: You know? I feel like that last one could actually also fit.

[00:10:53] There’s a personal version of that, right? The delaying a decision you could make now, but you don’t want to ’cause it’s emotionally difficult and other people Christ. Right. That feels like that could be a personal one as well. But I’m also totally thinking about RSVPing, like chronically RSVPing maybe.

[00:11:06] Because you don’t want to say no, you know, you’re not gonna go like, you know, it’s actually a no, but you say maybe. Or like, maybe it’s, you know, skipping that workout or skipping the lunch so that you can get more done, which you think, oh, I’m putting this off. It’s gonna, you know, buy me some time. But actually, like, it just hurts you ghosting on purpose.

[00:11:25] I feel like this is way more common than it should be. Like choosing, I don’t wanna have this difficult confrontation, so I’m just gonna, you know, back out of it.

[00:11:34] Joel: Yeah.

[00:11:34] Hannah: As I was looking at this episode, I was also thinking of one that I do all the time, which is not responding to my texts. I’m within bounds, right?

[00:11:41] Like I can, I am lawfully allowed to not be responsive to text, but it has created more than a little friction in relationships at different points where it’s like, Hey, you’re leaving me hanging. Like I wanna hear from you. So I think there’s like these moments, it doesn’t even have to be vindictive sometimes it’s just like you are like overlooking the impact that your actions could be having on someone else.

[00:12:01] But I do think. It kind of calls out as opposed to lawful good procrastination. This is a type of procrastination we do want to avoid. Right? ’cause even though it like might create some relief for us, it might kind of bias us some bandwidth. Um, or, or feel good to us. It actually harms others. It’s disruptive, even if it’s technically not out of bounds.

[00:12:23] Joel: Yeah. I think as a leader. These two, lawful good and lawful evil are real, really easy to confuse, and I as a leader, have defaulted to lawful evil plenty of times where I have said like, we’ll punt that meeting. We don’t need to do that right now. I’m doing it for myself. Everyone else is ready to go, and yet I’m the one who’s.

[00:12:48] Essentially holding things up in ways that are not productive. And it’s just easy as a leader to kind of think, well, it’s my prerogative. I can do that. And yeah, you can, but the cost actually starts to accrue in ways that maybe you can’t even count until it’s too late and you’ve now, you’ve got a team that doesn’t trust you.

[00:13:09] Now you’ve got the consequences of the schedule getting, you know, completely, uh, ka blue-eyed and you didn’t have to do it right.

[00:13:17] Hannah: Part of what’s dangerous about this type is it is easy to rationalize because from your seat it does make sense, right? When you are the person exercising this procrastination, it does help you.

[00:13:27] So you have to almost have this kind of. Come to Jesus moment where you’re asking like, who’s footing the bill for me making this decision,

[00:13:35] Joel: right?

[00:13:35] Hannah: And like, what is the actual cost? Because just because that cost isn’t landing with me doesn’t mean there isn’t a cost. So that I think there has to be this kind of self-awareness moment where you pay attention to what is the actual impact of this decision on other people.

[00:13:50] Joel: Right?

[00:14:03] The character table in Dungeons and Dragons has like nine possibilities. We’re not actually gonna cover all nine,

[00:14:10] Hannah: thank goodness here all day.

[00:14:11] Joel: Just too many. But we are gonna cover four. And the four we’re covering lawful good, lawful evil. And now we’re gonna shift to chaotic. Good. So. If the lawful side was about being proactive and strategic, the chaotic side is like being reactive and avoidant, but.

[00:14:34] Just because it’s reactive and avoidant doesn’t necessarily mean it causes problems in a way that is negative for everyone else or even ourselves in some instances. And so it is possible, and my whole career is based on this theory that some procrastination can be chaotic. Good. And we’ll talk about how this might work out.

[00:14:54] It still is disruptive. That’s a cost worth thinking about, but the easiest way to think about this is like waiting until the last second to help.

[00:15:02] Hannah: Yep. It’s funny, as I think about you, as I think about our relationship, you, you can be an agent of chaotic good Joel Miller. This is definitely part of, part of our working dynamic, but I do think the like holding both pieces together of it, right, of like.

[00:15:17] It can be kind of last minute and also the good, the great goodness that can happen. They feel like they’re contradictory, but they actually live together. So if I’m thinking about. Kind of examples. Not that any of these have ever happened in our relationship, but maybe like if you were delaying your very insightful feedback until like the end of the process where maybe it throws some other people off, but it still adds immense value.

[00:15:39] Right.

[00:15:40] Joel: I have not done that since last Thursday. I would like to be,

[00:15:43] Hannah: I, I would

[00:15:44] Joel: like

[00:15:44] Hannah: that note last Thursday was what I was thinking about.

[00:15:47] Joel: Yeah.

[00:15:48] Hannah: Or I feel like this is actually one, just, just comment on our team generally, um, scrambling to over deliver at the 11th hour in a way that genuinely surprises and delights.

[00:15:58] It’s chaotic for us, but it’s magical for other people. I feel like that has been our mo like more than a few times in the past or imagine. Most definitely. Imagine like you might put off that writing report so long that the situation has changed. Your late version is way more accurate than it would’ve been if you got going maybe earlier when you should have, right?

[00:16:19] Totally. Um, or maybe you have this great idea that disrupts kind of the plan that you initially laid out, but it actually opens up possibilities in a way that’s really, really exciting. As I think about you, this is actually one of the ones that comes to mind of like, you do your absolute best thinking on the bleeding edge of a deadline.

[00:16:41] Yeah. And everybody like I know it. Like we know that like you’re going to just have these brilliant insights right at this moment. And so that late deliverable is like a little bit annoying, but also we know like that’s when it’s gonna be the best that it can be.

[00:16:56] Joel: I think one of the things that I hope.

[00:16:59] Listeners get when they hear. The way we’re talking about these things is we all have patterns to the way that we work, and it’s really easy to say that you ought to work one way when you can work that way. But everyone’s different and everyone has the different style to the way that they work a different approach.

[00:17:19] The real question is. Can you work the way you work in a way that works for other people? And if you can do that, there’s no right or wrong way to work. But the if it works for other people is not often well enough considered because some of the times, the things that we do as a natural way of our work style ends up being highly disruptive.

[00:17:40] Not advantageous for other people. And that’s being a bad citizen, right? Like that’s, that’s just not a good way to be in the world.

[00:17:46] Hannah: Yeah. I mean, there is, there is an element here of like figuring out how to work with the way that you work or even the way your colleagues work, right? Where it’s almost like you have to plan for, okay, if we know that kind of gonna have some last minute input, that’s gonna be really significant.

[00:18:03] How might that change the way that we set up this project plan? How might that change the way we set up our meetings? How might that change the way we set up our time? Like there is this element of if we know that something disruptive might happen in the process, how do you plan for and around that disruption?

[00:18:19] Joel: One of the things I know for me in particular that’s just like practically predictable is incubation. I need a while to think about a problem. Mm-hmm. It looks like avoidance when I’m delaying an answer or a response, but it’s because I’m thinking about it and thinking is hard. Like it doesn’t, it’s not like you just have this switch in your head that you turn on and like suddenly you have an answer.

[00:18:44] Mm-hmm. Sometimes you have to like get all the junk out on the table and look at it all, and then kind of like put it outta mind while you go work on something else and then an answer emerges. At some point later, and that is a really helpful kind of procrastination.

[00:19:00] Hannah: Yep.

[00:19:01] Joel: You’re gonna possibly get your very best answer just by letting it stew.

[00:19:05] But the problem of course is you gotta be careful that in arriving at that answer, you haven’t caused all these downstream problems by taking that time.

[00:19:16] Hannah: I’m so struck by the thing that you said of like. The better answer can come later. Just because you have an initial answer on time, on schedule doesn’t mean it’s the best possible answer, right?

[00:19:27] Sometimes you need a little bit more of that time for it to develop and become kind of whatever it needs to be. But there is, again,

[00:19:34] Joel: sometimes these categories might. Be received by the person who’s in engaging with you differently than you even imagine them on the front end. So for instance, you might be incubating on something in a way that is gonna end up producing this good thing.

[00:19:50] Right? So it’s a little bit chaotic. Good. My experience of it working with you very often though, is that it’s like lawful good. I don’t, it’s not chaotic to me because I find out that you’ve already done this thing that I need, but I’m like. I’m further down in the line and you’ve already done it. Yeah, so my experience of it is like if you are procrastinating, I don’t even know that you’re procrastinating.

[00:20:14] Maybe that’s ’cause the timeline works out that way or whatever, but just to say that. Your proactiveness in the way that you work ends up creating a lot of really good work and you’re doing it, I’m assuming, with a fair amount of incubation in that process.

[00:20:28] Hannah: Yeah, I mean, definitely there’s this element of how we perceive that we work might not always be how others perceive that we work.

[00:20:34] That could go both. Directions, you know? But yeah, I think there’s like, however you end up there, this idea that sometimes waiting helps you get to the better product is really important. Waiting helps you get to the better decision, to the better conversation. Like whatever that thing is, again, that takes us back to lawful good of like sometimes putting it off is the most productive thing that you can do.

[00:20:57] Joel: Totally.

[00:20:58] Hannah: And I think, like clearly we’ve talked about that some in this professional context, but also if we’re thinking kind of personally. If I’m kind of calling us into this like chaotic, good moment. This is a place where I feel this is me. I’m chaotic. Good in my personal life. So like if I’m thinking like, okay, calling that friend that I’ve really been meaning to check on.

[00:21:18] And it’s like completely random, but I catch them at the exact right moment and it turns out that is exactly what they needed, right? Like I probably should have done this a while ago, but putting it off made this like timely conversation possible, right? Or delaying a decision long enough that it resolves itself and you somehow look patient rather than, wouldn’t

[00:21:37] Joel: that

[00:21:37] Hannah: love?

[00:21:38] Yeah. Oh, so good. This is absolutely me packing for a trip the night before. So you pack only exactly what you need instead of overthinking it for a week. I don’t, I can’t recall a trip that I’ve ever taken where I packed a week in advance, like the night before is my, or even the morning of, yeah, don’t tell anyone.

[00:21:56] That might stress some people out, but even the morning of is like, okay, I know what I’m gonna need, right? Like all my clothes are clean, all my toiletries are ready, we’re ready to go. This one is less me, but you could, you might imagine someone avoiding a conversation with someone long enough that the conflict just dissolves on its own without drama, without residue.

[00:22:14] Just like letting time kind of work it out. I think I’m slightly skeptical of this one, but I’m told it works sometimes.

[00:22:21] Joel: I think actually in relationships where there’s a lot on the line, this is probably not wise, but in and maybe less high stakes relationships. I’ve seen this a hundred times, you know?

[00:22:35] Hannah: Like in those kind of acquaintance or like, you know, maybe like distant colleague, like it’ll, it’ll work out. It’ll figure itself out, right? Yeah. If you think about this, this kind of procrastination, it produces positive results. Like it really does, but it has some drawbacks. I feel like we’ve touched on a couple of those drawbacks already, but if I’m kind of thinking about it to be able to ask this question, if you’re someone who does your best work under pressure, who is it best for?

[00:22:59] Like the end product, that might be great. But if that ride is kind of like a rollercoaster, if it’s, if it’s exhausting, that’s something to pay attention to.

[00:23:07] Joel: Yeah.

[00:23:08] Hannah: Um, and so kind of again, like going back to this idea with kind of working with how you work, thinking about how can I. Architect the process in a way that it works for me and works for other people the best that we can.

[00:23:20] Right? So that might look like building in runway for that last minute brilliance, like giving yourself a false deadline so that the real deadline is further down the way and you have kind of that buffer. But really I think like. It comes down to being mindful. So if you’re going to, if you know that this might happen, being mindful and like communicating, I would say extra.

[00:23:43] Keeping those lines of communication open so that you can create buffer if and when you need to so that you can account for the disruption the best that you can.

[00:23:52] Joel: Right? So if we think about lawful good, that’s like buy the book. Et cetera. But there’s not a lot of magic that happens when you’re going by the book.

[00:24:02] Hannah: Jazz is chaotic. Good. Right? Like you love jazz. And jazz is, in its essence, it’s chaotic. Good,

[00:24:09] Joel: right? I think that’s right. And I think the reason you want to keep this to kind of a mindful minimum is there are real benefits to it. So you don’t wanna rule it out.

[00:24:17] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:24:17] Joel: But at the same time, you just have to be mindful of the fact that you might be causing ripples that are, that are problematic.

[00:24:23] And so, but at the same time, you wanna save room for the magic.

[00:24:26] Hannah: Exactly, that’s what I was thinking is like you want like that 20% room for the magic. You know, you don’t wanna live, if we’re operating here a hundred percent of the time, we’re gonna be exhausted, but you gotta leave a little bit of space for whatever that kind of unexpected brilliance that’s gonna come through.

[00:24:40] We want space for that. It’s important,

[00:24:42] Joel: but there are times when the magic is not magical,

[00:24:46] Hannah: when it’s just pull your hair out

[00:24:48] Joel: when it’s just pull your hair out. And so. As we now transition into the fourth category, we’re gonna talk about chaotic evil. Ugh. This is where it’s reactive and avoidant and does definite harm not only to yourself, but everybody else.

[00:25:06] This is like. Like, let’s say you’re gonna abdicate, but you even delay abdicating the responsibility until the last minute and you just hand somebody a fire. You know?

[00:25:15] Hannah: Don’t you love that experience just being handed a

[00:25:16] Joel: fire? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, if we’re honest about this, a lot of times the person we’re handing the fire to is our future self.

[00:25:24] Hannah: Yes.

[00:25:24] Joel: You know, and you know you can be. A jerk to yourself a lot and there’s no person less fun being a jerk to than yourself. But we do this a lot.

[00:25:34] Hannah: Yes. All the time. Yeah. If I’m thinking about what this could look like professionally, I’m thinking about, you know, that, you know, people talk about volunteering, but there’s also volunteering, right?

[00:25:43] Right. You can volunt tell someone else to do work that you put off. You might delay an approval until someone else misses their deadline.

[00:25:51] Joel: I’ve never done that.

[00:25:52] Hannah: Yeah, I’ve never experienced you do that. You might,

[00:25:59] Joel: excuse me.

[00:25:59] Hannah: You okay there

[00:26:02] Joel: On my own dishonesty.

[00:26:04] Hannah: You might fail to document something and like go on vacation and you think like, oh, it’s okay. I’ll remember it when I’m back. But you’re not going to, and then while you’re gone, someone else will need that thing. Right? And then again, it’s this like all hell breaks loose moment, all this scrambling that didn’t have to happen.

[00:26:21] Joel: Right? Totally.

[00:26:22] Hannah: Um, or maybe kind of the caveat of what we were talking about earlier. You might decide that you’re gonna sit on a grievance or a frustration for so long that it starts coming out sideways. You know, like, you know when this happens. And it’s like in the wrong meeting, at the wrong moment, at the wrong person.

[00:26:38] And, and there’s kind of this disproportionate reaction that isn’t actually about the present moment. It’s about something that you’ve been stewing on, really unhappy for a while.

[00:26:48] Joel: Right. And would not happen if you had been more proactive. Correct.

[00:26:52] Hannah: Right. If you had had the conversation that you needed to, if you’d like confronted it in the moment.

[00:26:57] I just think about the way that like. Something that starts so small can snowball, right? It’s like if you had just cut it off at the head and said like, Hey, when you said that thing, it landed this way. Is that what you meant? And then, you know, gives the opportunity for clarification. But since you don’t have that moment, all of a sudden you’re putting off this confrontation, you think it’s gonna be really stressful.

[00:27:18] And so it like becomes bigger than it needs to be. It actually, it makes me think of the Double Wind Show episode we have coming up with, out with Kelly McGonigal.

[00:27:26] Joel: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:26] Hannah: She, it’s, it’s all about stress and she has this moment where she’s talking about how most of the kind of like toxic stress. That we experience is actually because we are trying to avoid something stressful, right?

[00:27:39] It it’s literally this, like we are trying to put off a thing that we don’t wanna experience. We’re trying to put off that chore. We don’t wanna do that conversation. We don’t wanna have that kind of like, I need to go take my car to get its tags. Like whatever that thing is. And so it kind of haunts you and makes me think of something Marissa has talked about before of like.

[00:27:59] The social media thing, it’s like, here’s me timing myself to see how long it takes me to do the thing I’ve been putting off for six months. Right? Right.

[00:28:07] Joel: Totally.

[00:28:07] Hannah: How long does it actually take me to fix that squeaky door or kind of repaint this cabinet or whatever it is? And the answer is, it’s not worth how long you put it off stressing for.

[00:28:19] Right? Like you have created this thing that’s bigger than it needs to be. And I do think to your point of like sometimes the, the person you’re handing a fire is yourself. Right. It’s like. We now, like you didn’t just have to experience the discomfort of doing the thing you didn’t wanna do, but you had to experience the much worse discomfort of the dread of doing it for so long that you didn’t actually have to endure, but you just did that to yourself.

[00:28:44] Joel: So this chaotic evil, I mean like the last examples you gave, those are all personal also, or they, they have personal application, but there are others and I think we’ve all felt versions of this like. Letting a resentment quietly build until it explodes over something completely unrelated. You know, that’s related to what we just talked about.

[00:29:03] Here’s a really particular one time’s, right? Basically for this season, putting off doing your taxes until you need your needlessly, like really stressed out about them and maybe accidentally accruing penalties in the process. I’ve never done that. Um, either staying up late. When you know you’ll have to get up early in the next morning.

[00:29:26] I have also never done this. I don’t know people that do, but I’m sure somebody out there does canceling plans right before, because you couldn’t say no earlier.

[00:29:37] Hannah: I’m so guilty. I’m so guilty

[00:29:38] Joel: ignoring a health symptom or a bill or that funky noise in your car until it becomes a bigger problem.

[00:29:45] Hannah: Okay.

[00:29:45] Everyone’s done that though. Like literally everyone’s done that.

[00:29:48] Joel: Yeah. No, that’s true. The ignoring the health thing is funny because it’s like we don’t even wanna imagine what it might mean. Yep,

[00:29:57] Hannah: yep.

[00:29:57] Joel: And yet all we’re doing is making it worse because like in almost every instance, like things don’t just.

[00:30:03] Resolve on their own if they’re serious without some kind of intervention. And the best intervention is the early intervention.

[00:30:11] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:30:11] Joel: So if you’ve got a funky noise in your body, whatever that happens, if you got the red check engine light going on in your body, like check the engine.

[00:30:18] Hannah: Yeah. It’s, it’s almost like we think that we can’t bear whatever reality is going to be uncovered.

[00:30:24] So we just think that if we stick our head in the ground, we don’t have to pay attention to it when it’s like actually like. It’s becoming worse by ignoring it,

[00:30:30] Joel: right? Not responding to a message for so long that it becomes awkward to respond at all, and so you just don’t, and then the relationship just quietly withers and dies.

[00:30:44] Hannah: Uhhuh,

[00:30:45] Joel: yeah.

[00:30:46] Hannah: Yeah. I’ve never done that one either.

[00:30:48] Joel: Yeah, thank God. I mean, that would be terrible

[00:30:50] Hannah: Uhhuh

[00:30:51] Joel: and just never getting help for your behaviors that harm other people,

[00:30:55] Hannah: which might include procrastination. Totally. Maybe you need to get some help for some, you know, chaotic evil procrastination.

[00:31:01] Joel: I know some people in recovery, and one of the things that I appreciate about recovery is however hard it is once you commit.

[00:31:10] To that process, this kind of stuff vanishes from their life. They get actually really good at dealing with their junk, and it’s inspiring actually.

[00:31:20] Hannah: Yeah. There is a level of kind of like radical self-responsibility, radical ownership that any kind of recovery journey requires that somehow ownership and chaotic evil procrastination don’t usually go together.

[00:31:33] They

[00:31:34] Joel: don’t go together. No.

[00:31:35] Hannah: As we’re kind of thinking about what do we do with chaotic evil procrastination, I think the real thing is that we need to take it seriously. Right? Even like more seriously than we might. It’s the

[00:31:47] Joel: worst kind, right? Yeah. I mean, this is the kind that kills you.

[00:31:51] Hannah: Yep.

[00:31:51] Joel: This is not the good kind.

[00:31:53] Hannah: This is the kind that when people talk about like, oh, I’m, I procrastinate so much, like I know it’s bad for me. Like this is the kind that you need to avoid. Because like really the harm might be invisible for a little while. And then it’s not, and then you know, it’s catching up with future you or it’s hurting the people around you and like at that point, even if you didn’t, even if it wasn’t malicious.

[00:32:16] Right. Right. I think that’s important is that this chaotic evil procrastination isn’t necessarily malicious. It’s not necessarily vindictive, but it has this harmful impact. Right? And so that’s like this moment where, hey, your intention doesn’t change. The impact and like the decision that you made to avoid, to delay, to advocate.

[00:32:35] Someone else is now paying that cost. Um, and I think it, it is, this kind of goes back to what I was saying about bearing reality, but I do think frequently whenever this chaotic, evil procrastination is happening, it comes down to, on some level, you’re uncomfortable with a hard thing, right? You’re trying to avoid a hard conversation, a hard decision, a hard truth.

[00:32:57] And in trying to avoid that, again, you’re creating this situation that is harmful. For the others behind you. And so I think the, the real invitation here is to close the gap between what you value and who you aspire to be and your behavior. Right? Right. It’s like this doesn’t have to be like a shame fest again.

[00:33:16] We’ve all been here, we’ve all done this. It’s this invitation to, Hey, if you are thinking about the person that you’re becoming, how does that person move through the world? Again, with that ownership, with that sense of responsibility, um, and how can you start stepping into that more and more?

[00:33:32] Joel: Okay, so if we’re gonna sum all this up.

[00:33:36] We’ve got four kinds of procrastination, and we often treat them like they’re the same thing because they all fit under the one bucket of procrastination. So we have this word, this term, we know that procrastination is wrong, and yet we know that that can’t be quite right because there are forms of procrastination that are actually healthy and helping that are helpful.

[00:33:59] And so. What we wanted to do in this episode was basically sort out some different types of procrastination so you can understand not only the differences, but then the impacts of those differences. And because we’ve done that, we now see that there are certain types of procrastination that are killer, like there are ACEs.

[00:34:18] You want more of this stuff, so let’s like talk through this list. We’ve got lawful good procrastination. This is the stuff that’s proactive and it’s strategic and it does some good and. You need more of this procrastination in your life. Like this is actually called good planning.

[00:34:35] Hannah: Yep.

[00:34:35] Joel: If you go back to the episode that Marissa and I did on plan, uh, the two episodes we did on Planning 1.0 versus planning 2.0, lawful good Procrastination is a form of planning 2.0 and it’s called being in Control of Your Schedule and it’s awesome.

[00:34:52] Hannah: Yep. It’s doing stuff when you need to do it. It’s sequencing. It’s yeah, being strategic.

[00:34:57] Joel: Yeah.

[00:34:57] Hannah: But then on the other hand, we could also have this lawful evil procrastination, which is when it’s proactive and it’s strategic for you, but it’s actually creating harm for other people. And I think the key here is that like we need to not do it even though we can, like, even though it’s technically on paper allowed.

[00:35:15] We need to avoid it for the sake of the people around us, right? Yes. ’cause we don’t want to hand them a problem that really we should take the ownership for solving

[00:35:25] Joel: now my favorite because it’s my default mode of living. If you look at my entire career arc, there’s some version of this playing out all, all along the way, and that’s chaotic.

[00:35:35] Good. You have to keep this to a mindful minimum for the obvious reasons, that while it’s reactive and avoidant and it does some good, it causes ripples, that can be problematic. And so you wanna save room for the magic, but you also wanna make sure that the magic doesn’t work. Like you know the Sorcerer’s apprentice, and all of a sudden you’ve got this chaotic scene happening in a way that dominates the rest of the work.

[00:35:59] So. Save room for the magic, but keep it to a mindful minimum. That would be the advice on chaotic, good procrastination.

[00:36:07] Hannah: Yes. And then there’s the kind of procrastination that I think most of the world only thinks about, which is this chaotic evil procrastination. The kind of procrastination you really do wanna avoid, because again, you’re creating big problems.

[00:36:20] For someone else, it’s harmful. That person might be your future self. And I think the key here again, is, is to take this more seriously than you might initially be inclined to. Right? Like really think about the fallout and. Choose to do the uncomfortable, the harder thing earlier so that you prevent creating bigger problems down the line.

[00:36:41] Joel: Yeah. That’s the framework. Let’s just pivot for a few minutes to like what to do.

[00:36:46] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:47] Joel: You know, like if you have a full focus planner, this is actually really easy to start thinking about because at the front of the planner are the monthly pages.

[00:36:55] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:36:56] Joel: And there’s room in the margin of that monthly calendar.

[00:37:00] To basically write down all the stuff that you’re thinking about doing and then just start putting it into some reasonable slots.

[00:37:07] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:37:07] Joel: On the fifth I’m gonna do X, Y, or Z. On the 12th I’ll do X, Y, or Z, you know, and start sequencing these things out. That’s how you do lawful good procrastination.

[00:37:18] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:37:18] Joel: And that’s how, if your schedule has enough lawful good procrastination, that’s actually what preserves the margin for the chaotic Good.

[00:37:25] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:37:26] Joel: Procrastination. So like use the monthly calendar tool to basically help you stage this stuff.

[00:37:34] Hannah: I’m gonna throw in a little chaotic good procrastination here too, and say there’s one more that I think of when I think about this topic.

[00:37:40] Joel: Yeah.

[00:37:41] Hannah: Which is during the weekly preview. I think one of the most underrated opportunities is when you’re planning your upcoming week, when you’re looking ahead at the upcoming week to ask yourself, what do I need to not do?

[00:37:53] Instead of just thinking about hero commitments that I’ve made, what are the things that I actually need to get out of in order to create the margin that I need? And so there’s this opportunity to do some of that lawful good procrastination by asking yourself that question, what should I like, delay or put off?

[00:38:10] That I’m supposed to do this week, but I could do later.

[00:38:13] Joel: What’s wise about that is a lot of times what happens is we put everything on the list and we have some things that are in like the lawful, good procrastination kind of zone. Like we’ve decided we’re gonna put that off for a week later or whatever.

[00:38:27] But a lot of times what happens is we hope we can get it all done.

[00:38:32] Hannah: Yes.

[00:38:32] Joel: And we’re like trusting the chaotic good procrastination magic, trusting that it will show up and bail us out. It doesn’t.

[00:38:41] Hannah: Yes,

[00:38:41] Joel: and then all of a sudden we’re in like lawful evil procrastination land, or chaotic evil procrastination by accident.

[00:38:49] Hannah: Yes,

[00:38:50] Joel: and that’s not good for anybody.

[00:38:53] Hannah: It’s almost like you’re procrastinating, you’re procrastination. You like just if you were to do it earlier than it would be in the lawful good, rather in the chaotic evil.

[00:39:01] Joel: Totally.

[00:39:03] Hannah: When it comes down to it, I think what we need to be thinking about is that when we get things done, it impacts ourselves.

[00:39:10] It impacts other people, and it impacts our future. There really is. A right time, a right season for everything. And so we need to get strategic, not just about what we do, which we talk about a lot, um, on this podcast, but we also need to be strategic about when we do it. When you’re doing both of those, holding both of those pieces, thinking about what to do and when to do it, that sets you up for a different kind of success.

[00:39:34] Joel: I love that.

[00:39:40] Thanks for joining us for Focus On This.

[00:39:42] Hannah: This is the most productive podcast on the internet, so please share it with your friends,

[00:39:48] Joel: even by the way, if they don’t play DD,

[00:39:52] Hannah: even if they don’t play d and d. And be sure to subscribe wherever you listen or on focus on this podcast.com.

[00:39:58] Joel: We’ll be here next week where we’re going to talk about where and how mind reading is probably wreaking havoc.

[00:40:07] At work and what you can do about it instead.

[00:40:11] Hannah: I’m so excited for that episode. Until then, stay.

[00:40:15] Joel: Stay focused.